Introduction

Are you ready to go down the rabbit hole? To visit a surreal world, where black is white and white is carrots?

A friend, Metacognician in Shanghai, describes the situation as follows: “Life is more absurd than movies. I've gone down the rabbit hole too, when it just becomes more and more strange and you wonder how that all is supposed to make sense.” I asked him if I should just embrace it. He answered, “Why should you ... change the universe?”

It started with a psychotic named Jim Kiraly who resides, we think, at 6329 Twinberry Circle, Avila Beach, California.

Jim Kiraly is a respected citizen. A churchgoer. A Vice President of Transamerica Corporation. And a violent abuser who tried to use an emergency anti-violence measure, one intended to protect battered women, to stop his victim in a wheelchair from writing a book.

Concise enough? :)

For attorneys: Jim Kiraly filed for CLETS against his son and victim, who lived 200 miles away, did not own a car, and was in a wheelchair. His son and victim was not asked to end communications. Jim had no (zero) specific and relevant allegations that were not perjury. But he turned down repeated offers of no-contact and a signed stipulation that gave him everything but CLETS. He insisted on CLETS if his victim ever once “discussed” him with third parties.

In the end, Jim Kiraly signed an agreement far weaker than the ones he'd been offered.

A review of Court paperwork and other materials will tend to confirm that Jim and other parties, including attorneys on all sides, committed multiple felonies, crimes, and faux pas. :P

The word “abuser” is stated here publicly and without equivocation. A formal offer is hereby made to reaffirm the word in writing and under oath. Attorneys will understand the significance of the point. In short, there is little terror of a threatened defamation suit on this side. Actually, we feel that such a suit will fit nicely up Jim Kiraly's abuser ass.

Jim has one son, Ken Kiraly, who invented the Amazon Kindle and is one of the leads at Amazon's secret Lab126. Another son, Tom Kiraly is one of the leads, a Vice President-CFO type, at medical insurance firms, including one of the largest, Humana Corporation.

These people and some of the biggest names in Silicon Valley legal circles have committed or are involved in multiple crimes.

For the next decade or two, we're going to explore the crimes that these people committed, the motivations and the denial involved, the background and histories that led each person to make the choices that they did, and ways to build upon what happened and move towards positive societal goals.

There's plenty to go over. These people committed or were involved in: Spousal abuse, child abuse, DDOS (a highly prosecutable violation of CFAA), extortion, perjury, conspiracy to commit perjury (a possible felony), false police reports, conspiracy to file false police reports (a possible felony), unlawful threats, barratry, defamation, malpractice, civil harassment, criminal harassment, abuse of process, and violations of SCCBA Professional Standards.

The point was to force Jim's oldest son and victim, me, to sign a gag order. I was in a wheelchair. I'd never made a single inappropriate threat against my abuser. I wasn't even asked to not to call anybody. But Jim threatened to put me in a violence database unless I agreed never to write about him.

I won the right to write, but I lost my home of 25 years, most of my possessions, my chances for retirement, everything. Everything but a realization.

I can make a difference. I can conduct research for legitimate and reasonable purposes, document what happened, and analyze the choices of the people involved:

• Jim Kiraly, abuser. Possibly Treasurer at St. Johns Lutheran Church. Vice President of Transamerica Corporation. Also connected to New Life Pismo Church. Involved with Service Core for Retired Executives (SCORE).
• Grace Kiraly, abuse victim and Christ Follower.
• Tom Kiraly, abuse victim, VP or CFO of firms such as Hanger Inc., Humana Corporation, and Sheridan Healthcare.
• Gail Cheda, slightly demented Realtor, spittle flying.
• Ken Kiraly, abuse victim, inventor of the Amazon Kindle, lead at Amazon's secret Lab126, sociopath.
• Tom Stutzman of Thomas Chase Stutzman, a Family Law attorney whose hobbies include martial arts and alleged sexual harassment
• John Perrott of Thomas Chase Stutzman, a personable albeit lazy Family Law attorney who has a slight tendency towards fraud and malpractice
• Chris Burdick, head of the Santa Clara County Bar Association (SCCBA). Chris, you broke a written promise to speak with me because, you said, we had “Prior...” You didn't finish the sentence. Were you worried that I might take false statements to the State Bar? What's the deal with you and Hoge Fenton, anyway? What will we find if we dig?
• Michael Bonetto of Hoge Fenton. Michael, seriously, what are you?
• Alison Buchanan of Hoge Fenton, ethics specialist. Alison, did you contribute to the SCCBA Professional Standards, or was that before your time?
• Tracie Zerr of Thomas Chase Stutzman, a woman of boundless intelligence and sensitivity.
• Maggie Desmond of Hoge Fenton. Maggie, information, please. What is your role in Hoge Fenton's campaign to hush victims of abuse? When the clients that you've protected beat up women, how do you compartmentalize?

Maggie told me that she didn't know what she could say to me about what happened. However, we have decades to work it out. It will be productive. I'd like to direct the attention of attorneys and other parties to the:

Legitimate and Reasonable Purposes List

Questions or comments are welcome. For technical notes and disclaimers, click here.

Free Downloads

Thursday 2012-11-29 — Higgins the Cat

121129.3. Mr. Meow's new kitten and his dog.

Thursday 2012-11-29 — Letter to my attorney

121129.4. This is another letter to my attorney.

Thanks for your note today. We'll discuss your points about the deposition of my mother, Grace Kiraly, later. For now, I'll speak about other issues.

EMPLOYMENT
============

Last week, you indicated that I should write a declaration related to employment. Indicate what I should say and I'll write this now.

SETTLEMENT
============

You said, “If you read that response you will see a clear rejection of their primary overreaching: that they want you to not contact a large list of people never covered by the CLETS.”

Not clear enough. The “overreaching” went further. Nothing similar to a document of that type will be accepted.

You are directed to reject provisions for conversion to CLETS, financial penalties, removal of website content, anything that refers to “discuss” or “contact” with third parties not already covered, and anything that refers to “follow” or “gather information”, including the involvement of other parties for the purpose of research.

Additionally, you are directed to reject anything that extends the scope of the initial orders unless you feel it is something worth discussing.

Regarding Michael Bonetto's demands to take down websites: Content will not be removed based on demands. He is free to point out factual errors. Domain names are a separate matter. I feel that it may be best to address domain names during civil litigation, Bar Association actions, or state-level actions against Michael or Hoge Fenton.

I have demands of my own. We've discussed them.

These remarks don't overreach. Both you and Michael are aware that the Kiraly Cases are unusual.

A PROMISE
==========

I absolutely intend to do many of the lawful and appropriate things that Michael Bonetto of Hoge Fenton seeks to prohibit. Additionally, I'll do so for years regardless of the outcome of Long Cause.

Mechanisms will include lawful and appropriate phone calls, conventional mail, electronic mail, static websites, dynamic weblogs, and social media; including but not limited to YouTube videos. People familiar with social media who are interested in anti-abuse projects are invited to assist with social media projects or to quote prices.

If I understand you (my attorney) correctly, no judge could bar lawful and appropriate research related to anti-abuse projects, biographies, litigation, etc., and most would not attempt to do so.

The Kiralys have already lost.

KIRALY CASES ARE UNUSUAL
==========================

In late 2011, I asked my parents to help with the writing of a book. This included my father, James Kiraly of Pismo Beach, California. Formerly Vice President of Transamerica Corporation. A model citizen. And an abuser.

I'd like to be clear. I'm not saying “alleged abuser” or using weasel words like “I feel James was abusive” in this context. I'm stating publicly here that James Kiraly was an “abuser”. Emotionally and physically violent.

James Kiraly was somebody who used to literally shake with rage. It was quite a sight. Somebody who tore up plants. Smashed objects. And people.

Even under normal conditions, James wasn't much fun. He was especially controlling towards his wife Grace Kiraly. As one example, Grace wanted to be a vegetarian. But James liked meat. So Grace had to pretend to eat it.

There are interesting stories about James's controlling behavior. I've told you (my attorney) a couple of the stories. I should talk more openly about things. The stories will be instructive for people who are interested in how abuse works.

You've cautioned me to beware of “defamation” suits. If James Kiraly wishes to file false and fraudulent “defamation” suits, I'll be pleased to respond. As a technical note, I believe James is aware that witnesses are still alive.

The book wasn't intended to be negative. But James Kiraly went to the police circa the next business day after the request was made. As I understand it, based on discussions I had with the police later on, James had no basis for a complaint of any type and nothing was done. I never even heard from the police until I phoned them myself about filing criminal charges against James.

James Kiraly lied about the incident subsequently. Note for attorneys: I'm not saying “I feel that James lied”. Let's be clear again. I'm stating that my father lied. In short, I've got a violent obsessive abuser and liar as a father and he's trying to bankrupt me to stop a book. Disrupting my efforts to find employment and deal with physical illness.

It's loads of fun.

Regarding the factual nature of these assertions, I invite people to review the evidence as I post it over time.

As I understand it, James Kiraly fumed about the matter for months. He contacted others and urged them “don't be afraid” to give him something that he could use to “prosecute Bob”.

But there was nothing.

In Spring 2012, I called a church with my mother's permission. Scheduled an interview more than a week in advance. Spoke pleasantly with Pastor Ron about the nature of a Christ Follower. That's where one of my domain names comes from. James seems to be claiming that I called Pastor Ron to discuss James's past history as an abuser. Nothing of the sort happened. Later on, after James filed false and fraudulent CLETS actions, the church offered me support.

James Kiraly assembled a set of false allegations based on the church call and similar incidents. Then he hired Michael Bonetto of Hoge Fenton to suppress the book.

Michael couldn't find a way to stop the book directly. He filed CLETS actions instead. If I understand correctly, actions of this type are generally used to protect battered women etc. who are in danger.

There is some irony in the situation. The accused, myself, was never violent. He was the one who got knocked to the floor. Or chased out of the house half-naked. James Kiraly, the key plaintiff, is the most violent person in the Kiraly family. Thomas Kiraly, Vice President of Humana Corporation and another plaintiff, has been known to threaten to shoot people in the head. Thomas used to say that he'd laugh as the brains ran out of the shattered skull.

Michael submitted polite postcards as “evidence” of some type even though the postcards were approved by the police. His paperwork implied that a gift of my grandfather's religious poetry to Thomas Kiraly was extortion. It also suggested that I'd hacked Amazon Corporation to get at Kenneth Kiraly, architect of the Amazon Kindle.

Michael's latest communications demand that I not speak to the church mentioned above. I have every intention of doing so regardless of any future restraining orders. I'll explain here for the benefit of any judges who may read this.

If a restraining order is issued ordering me not to speak with the church again, I'll continue speaking with them on the grounds that they've invited me to do so. The conflict between the church's offer and the court order should lead to the publicity that these cases need.

There's quite a bit more. There's a document set about the Kiraly Cases. Disorganized so far but it will improve over time. People can find a PDF on my websites. Which Michael Bonetto is demanding that I take down or redact. That's another odd part.

Eventually the case material alone will reach 500 pages. This may make an interesting movie. Which James Kiraly and Michael Bonetto will try to stop I assume.

POINTS FOR OPC TO CONSIDER
============================

(a) OPC may wish to convey to his clients that they have no leverage.

(b) OPC is fighting to help an abuser, James Kiraly of Pismo Beach, stop the writing of a book. An abuser who has lied repeatedly.

You'll say that there's more to Long Cause than this. OPC will say, “What lies? They feel threatened. That's sufficient reason for CLETS.” Whether or not the two of you are right, I can make use of these facts elsewhere.

(c) No judge can order what the Kiralys wish. Am I correct or incorrect? What the judge will order will only ensure that the matter will continue.

James and Grace Kiraly are elderly. They have perhaps 5 to 10 years to live. Probably less, in James's case; he's had about three strokes and shows signs of dementia.

Do the Kiralys wish to relax on vacations etc. ? Or do James and Grace prefer to make trouble and face the consequences of their decisions even though they have nothing to gain by this?

(d) There will be no panicked agreement to a stipulation on the day before Long Cause. Not after the money that's been spent. The notion is ludicrous.

(e) Regardless of Long Cause, work will continue. I have multiple legal protections and the Kiralys can't contravene them. We've been over this. My guess is that OPC knows it too. He needs to explain it clearly to James, Grace, Thomas, and Kenneth.

(f) Websites will continue. If possible, social media will be part of this. Discussions with child abuse groups, spousal abuse groups, and churches. Lawful and appropriate phone calls.

Research related to the Kiraly Cases and future litigation. Research related to biographies of the Kiralys, which I'm absolutely entitled to write. Research related to books about the Kiraly Cases. Research that James, Grace, Thomas, and Kenneth Kiraly can't stop.

(g) No restraining orders will prevent me from communicating with the particular church cited by Michael since the church has offered to assist me.

(h) I feel that Bar Association actions may be worth some effort. State level actions are promising. Torts actions based on abuse of process are also a possibility.

I'm in this for the long haul. Do the Kiralys wish to continue this farce despite the fact they've already lost?

Thursday 2012-11-29 — Tweets are Neats

121129.5. Just some tweets from Thursday 121129.

<WardPlunet> Child maltreatment linked to mental and physical health disorders in later life

<BoldCoder> Not too surprising. It stays with you in more ways than one.

<zaibatsu> “One person with a belief is equal to a force of ninety-nine who have only interests.” —Peter Marshall

<BoldCoder> Agreed. I've got the ninety nine; see my site. But I'm going to be the one. This quote gets saved.

<sweetfoodie> Most kids don't tell they're bullied — top reasons: humiliation, fear retaliation, say tips don't work.

<BoldCoder> Autistic kids sometimes don't understand what they're supposed to do. Even if they're physically injured.

Wednesday 2012-11-28 — General

121128.1. Slept 2:30am to 7:30am.

Wednesday 2012-11-28 — Attorney demands removal of content

121128.2. Michael Bonetto of Hoge Fenton has, as I understand it, demanded the surrender of some of the domain names associated with the Kiraly Cases blog. More importantly, he has apparently demanded that content be removed from the blog; specifically, references to himself and/or other Hoge Fenton attorneys. This is quite interesting. I'd like to find out if the EFF would be willing to look into Michael's demands.

To read or download the PDF that I received on this matter, click here. For a web page version of the PDF, click here instead.

Wednesday 2012-11-28 — Letter to attorney

121128.3. This is a letter to my attorney. Sent on 121128.

1. This letter discusses a document that was apparently prepared by, at the direction of, or in consultation with:

MICHAEL T. BONETTO BAR #252742
mtb@hogefenton.com
HOGE, FENTON, JONES & APPEL, INC.
Sixty South Market Street, Suite 1400
San Jose, California 95113-2396
Phone: (408) 287-9501
Fax: (408) 287-2583

circa November 2012. For the purposes of this letter, it will be referred to informally as “Michael's document” or “Michael Bonetto's document”.

2. First, an important note. Michael Bonetto's document seems to include the address of seven “protected” parties and/or related parties:

(a) James Francis Kiraly, a former VP of Transamerica Corporation who lives or has lived in Pismo Beach, California

(b) Grace Violet Kiraly, wife of James Francis Kiraly who lives or has lived in Pismo Beach, California

(c) Thomas Evan Kiraly, apparently a VP of Humana Corporation who apparently lives or has lived in Glenview, Kentucky

(d) Four other “protected” parties and/or related parties

I hereby state publicly that I did not seek to obtain these addresses but that I have been provided with these addresses, either with the explicit or implied consent of Michael Bonetto or otherwise through no prohibited actions of my own, and I am now in possession of these addresses.

I'll add that, as I've explained in the past, I was in possession of the first two addresses previously, prior to the issuance of any order not to seek them.

The most important point related to all of this is, I feel, that any order not to seek these addresses is now arguably moot.

3. Moving on, I've spent quite a bit on legal fees. A non-trivial part of that has gone to discussions regarding the fact that the Kiraly Cases are, at their heart, about a former abuser, James Kiraly, fighting to prevent one of his children, myself, from writing an anti-abuse book. And about the fact that the project will not be set aside.

So why did you send me a document that is much stronger than the original orders and that puts a definitive end to the book?

Why would I agree to something much stronger than the original orders? And much stronger, in some respects, than anything a judge could, in fact, order? I'd never accept these terms. You're fully aware of this.

4. If Michael Bonetto of Hoge Fenton is not able to correct the problems with his document, proceed as follows: (a) Meet and Confer. (b) Motion to Limit Scope. (c) Subpoena unredacted phone records. (d) Subpoena Grace Violet Kiraly. (e) Interrogatories, Admissions of Truth, and additional Demands for Production.

5. Explain to me what my declaration regarding employment needs to say; the one you mentioned last week. I'll write it and send it to you promptly.

6. Michael Bonetto's document demands not only the surrender of lawful and appropriate domain names, but also the removal of content from lawful and appropriate websites. Tell Michael to review how this type of effort by attorneys typically ends up. It's probably a good idea that he study the issue.

7. Tell Michael Bonetto this: (a) His demand for the removal of lawful and appropriate content will be forwarded to the Electronic Frontier Foundation and other groups that may be interested. (b) The document as a whole will become a part of future mailings to anti-abuse organizations and advocacy groups. (c) The document as a whole will go to multiple anti-abuse sites, including my own.

8. Tell Michael Bonetto this: I'm going to take steps starting immediately that may be of interest to him or other parties seeking to suppress the facts of the Kiraly Cases. I'll be distributing ZIP files to mirrors outside my control. If any anti-abuse site of mine is taken down for any reason, including by me, copies will appear in locations around the world.

It should be noted as a point of information that anti-abuse documents in China, Canada, Europe, Sri Lanka, Brazil, or New Zealand are just as visible to U.S. browsers as copies in the U.S.

9. The document says “Indirect contact shall include but not be limited to contacting neighbors, friends, business associates, and church members (congregation and religious officials) of any Protected Person for purposes of discussing, stalking, or harassing any Protected Person.”

This is much stronger than the original orders. Note the word “discussing”. This is about stopping the anti-abuse book. I absolutely am going to discuss “Protected Persons” in every possible lawful and appropriate venue. Michael Bonetto and Natasha Parrett of Hoge Fenton too. For years, to the maximum extent possible. I've made this clear to you since the start.

10. Tell Michael Bonetto this: Initially, lawful and appropriate calls will be made to child and spousal abuse advocacy groups. Calls will focus on Hoge Fenton's attempts to suppress a positive book that happens to discuss child and spousal abuse. Michael's document will be forwarded to each group as possible evidence of his actions and intentions.

11. Michael's document mentions “business associations of each protected person”. Also churches again. As before, this seems to be much stronger than the original orders. I'd never agree to it. And, again, you're fully aware of this.

Wednesday 2012-11-28 — Minetest virtual worlds

121128.4. Here's another 2D Minetest avatar; created, again, by the player. She comes across as a Sigourney Weaver type heroine. Flying above a destroyed city; this world has been “griefed”. Might make a good action adventure film.

Wednesday 2012-11-28 — Medical

121128.5. Not sure how to evaluate my physical state.

Right hand is swollen again. One slightly deformed finger is starting to twist further. I've had difficulties typing with that hand this week. But I can walk fine. Similar problems used to disrupt mobility but I haven't needed the wheelchair for a while.

Food continues to put me into an odd state; rapid breathing, exhaustion, difficulty simulating normal thought, abrupt loss of consciousness. But I've eaten sometimes recently with decreased symptoms.

I eat on two days each week. Weight loss is about 65 pounds but may be leveling off. More people seem to be noticing that. It's good in some respects but I think I'm physically weak now.

The oddest issue is new this year. It's quite visible in places but I don't have the words to describe it. Showed it to my attorney when it was milder. He didn't recognize it either. Worse now. It's as though parts of me are breaking down physically from the inside.

I think the last thing is the same as the loss of mobility and the deformed hand. Grace Kiraly would say it's due to lack of prayer. Or to drinking beer though I've had none for half a year.

121128.6. I ate on Wednesday afternoon. This was the first day since Saturday. The usual illness hit for a few hours afterward but it wasn't nearly as difficult as usual. I wanted to go to the buffet in Santa Clara. It's a friendly place with good food. Howver, I ended up eating locally because I was short on time.

Tuesday 2012-11-27 — General

121127.1. Slept 5:20am to 9:20am.

121127.2. Tactician needed a simple way to download a file via FTP under Ubuntu. I gave him the following commands, which may be useful to others. They should work under most Debian-family distros:

sudo apt-get install wget
sudo wget --user='USER' --password='PASS' \
ftp://HOSTNAME/PATH/bacon.zip

USER and PASS here should be replaced with the appropriate FTP user name and password. The ftp://... part should be replaced with the appropriate FTP URL.

Monday 2012-11-26 — General

121126.1. Slept 8:45pm Sunday to 1:20am Monday. Slept some more 2:40am Monday to 8:45am. Not well. Probably slept a few more times throughout the day.

121126.2. Phenek and I discussed 'C' code examples from the K&R White Book. We also talked about programming languages in general; the ones he might wish to learn. I introduced Bacon Bits separately to the idea of regular expressions, also known as regexes.

Monday 2012-11-26 — Helsinki Christmas Event

121126.3. Phenek shared some fun photos with me over the weekend. Pictures of an early Christmas event in Helsinki. I'll pass along a few of them here with his permission:

Monday 2012-11-26 — Hash Hash Freenode

121126.4. People have asked me why I usually create ##channels at Freenode as opposed to #channels. The answer is that #channels are against Freenode rules for many topics.

Here's the relevant text from the Freenode rules:

Primary channel names, formatted with a single leading hash mark (#), are reserved for participating groups and organizations based on their legal or informal claim to the associated name or name prefix. For example, Peer-Directed Projects Center, the organization which runs the network, has reserved the name freenode and has been granted control over channel #freenode, as well as any channel beginning with #freenode-.

Topical or reference channel names, formatted with two leading hash marks (##), are allocated on a first-come, first-served basis to unofficial groups wishing to discuss a project, group or general topic area. For example, the channel ##linux has been reserved for an unofficial group which uses it to provide GNU/Linux support to visiting users.

Monday 2012-11-26 — The truth is a sword

121126.5. There was an IRC disagreement on Sunday that spilled over to Monday. For those who know about the matter, an agreement was reached on Monday afternoon. John brokered the agreement; that was good of him.

Events ran from 10:15am Sunday to 1:00pm Monday. Just one day but it was a lively one.

The problem had to do with Cody, who had seemed hostile since the Kiraly Cases became an issue in June. At the time, he took exception to remarks that I made related to James Kiraly. The part about James's difficulties with the truth.

I assume that, in June, Cody projected positive feelings about his own father Dean into the Kiraly situation that he commented on at the time. If this is the case, he was wrong to do so. James and Dean were quite different.

At any rate, Cody had come across as arrogant during a few encounters from June to November. He often spoke of his own importance. This was connected to his status as a genuine though minor public figure. He seemed to equate attention with significance. This is a mistake that celebrities of all stripes tend to make, of course.

Cody did display a sense of humor when I wrote an extemporaneous poem about him; a fun bit of doggerel. His response to the poem, privately, was “my hat's off to you, dude”. Publicly, though, he referred to the work as “creepy”.

Matters reached a head on Sunday 121125. Cody challenged me to a “rap battle”. I was ill at the time. I wanted nothing to do with a “rap battle”. Or with Cody's juvenile nonsense in general. The situation escalated. In the end, Cody overstepped reasonable bounds. He feels the same way about me, of course.

Cody's thought processes throughout the situation illustrate useful points. I'll write further about this part in my books. I hope to speak with Cody, at his convenience, first.

For now, I'll say that things appear to be settled. And that a new IRC channel I created as part of the aftermath strikes me as worthwhile.

I won't name the new channel here for now because it's still under construction. It may not even get off the ground. But I wanted to say that, whether or not the channel survives for long, I'm glad I attempted this.

There's a fun part. The new channel includes quite a few IRC friends. I've changed most of their names but: Metacognician, Nivia, Aequus, Blue Dream, Tactician, Phenek, Kappelin, Rubidiun, Mr. Meow, Tariq, John, Anunnaki the God, the Masked Lua, Ositha, Jack of Shadows, and others are there; in one place, at least briefly, for the first time.

Even Twisted Time showed up briefly for a visit at the start. That had to be a sign.

During the dispute, several people offered me support. I'd like to say I appreciated it. I regret the fact they needed to spend time on the matter.

Most people, even the ones who helped, believed that I should have “walked away” from the situation. Surrendered regardless of the facts. To fight was impolite.

I understand their feelings. But “walk away” would have been the wrong choice in this case. I stand by the following remarks, which I made to Tariq afterward:

I have seen what the world is. And what it needs. It needs kindness. And patience. And the truth. The truth is not a blanket, Tariq. It is a sword.

Note to my good friends Michael and Natasha in San Jose: Don't even bother trying to “go there” with misrepresentations of the metaphor “sword”. For what it's worth, by the way, I'm a bit tired of you.

Sunday 2012-11-25 — General

121125.1. Slept 10:15pm Saturday to 1:45am Sunday. Probably two or three times later in the day.

Sunday, like Saturday, was productive but odd.

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